If you vote for anyone who isn’t Trump, you are helping the US take a step in the right direction.
Until we are no longer bound by the Electoral College, this is dangerously false. “Not Trump” isn’t a candidate, and the single candidate with the most votes get the electoral votes. If Trump gets 49% and the “not Trump” votes get 51% but no single “not Trump” candidate gets above 49%, then Trump wins even though Trump got less votes than “not Trump”
The only way to meaningfully vote “not Trump” is to vote for the “not Trump” candidate who everyone is rallying around rather than throwing a stupid protest vote to a third party candidate.
If it is a protest vote, as goes your assumption without evidence? it’s dumb, but it’s their right.
most people vote on policy, so they’re voting for third party candidates that have a stronger stance on whatever policy there is.
in this particular election, Harris already achieved more effective policy change than third candidate platforms in terms of environmentalism, minority rights, and so on, so it makes logical sense to vote for her if you’re a political liberal, but if somebody wants to vote for Stein or anybody else because that candidate is more aligned with their views, that is just as valid as voting for Harris.
they are voting as they should, not as some are hoping they will be scared into voting.
No. It really is. In 2016, 50,000 Pennsylvanians, including myself, voted for Jill Stein because we didn’t like Hilary. Trump won Pennsylvania by less than 50,000 votes and won the presidency.
It was fucking stupid and we wouldn’t even be discussing this piece of shit today, if we hadn’t revenge voted.
it sucks that Trump won, but your vote was valid and no third party voter was throwing their vote away.
they just lost.
Trump won for many other reasons besides third party voters.
there were a lot of bullshit tactics in 2016 that added up to way more votes lost that had a stronger impact on the election result than third-party voters sticking to their values.
shit, gerrymandering is still legal in the US and your voter registrations have practically no protection from interference. That’s insane.
If you voted according to your values, you voted well.
If you voted according to your values, you voted well.
Exactly. And while I agree, I also live somewhere that uses a variety of ranked choice voting for some elections.
If someone truly wants to vote their values they should also have some understanding of how their voting system works.
If a vote for the candidate you believe in results in your least preferred candidate getting ahead, shouldn’t you consider a compromise vote to get a candidate closer to your values in power?
“If a vote for the candidate you believe in results in your least preferred candidate getting ahead, shouldn’t you consider a compromise vote to get a candidate closer to your values in power?”
sure, and they probably do.
your statement implies that third party voters are politically illiterate and aren’t considering their vote, which doesn’t hold any water.
do you think all Harris or Trump voters are carefully considering their options?
many are voting according to a familiar primary color.
from simple logic, third-party voters are likely more politically considerate than primary color voters.
a lot of the arguments against third-party voting are arguments against voting in general.
that is usually my problem, as it is here, with complaining about third-party voting.
it is completely predicated on the assumption that 3rd party voters are making the “wrong” decision in some fundamental way that primary color voters are not, although the hypothetical flaws that could apply to a third- party voter already apply to primary color voters.
If you don’t assume that the right to vote is “wrong” for people who don’t agree with you in the first place, then your complaints about third party voting fall apart.
third party voters like a different candidate.
and that’s good and they should vote for them if they want to.
a lot of the arguments against third-party voting are arguments against voting in general.
Maybe. But with the system in place a vote for a third-party candidate is effectively an abstention. I think you’re right that they’re more politically considerate and wanting to make a difference. It’s the desire to make a difference and effectively abstaining that seems incongruous.
“with the system in place a vote for a third-party candidate is effectively an abstention.”
no.
they are probably not going to win an election, but actively voting is the opposite of abstaining.
“It’s the desire to make a difference and effectively abstaining that seems incongruous.”
they are making a difference by voting for what they believe in, for the policies they consider most impactful on their lives(aka “voting” in most countries).
you see voting as an abstention even though it’s definitively the opposite of an abstention, implicitly based on consideration and values.
they probably see voting differently, maybe as an extension of their political will, or a form of activism, or a civic duty to be performed honestly.
duverger’s “law” shows that the problem with fptp is that people strategically vote, leading to party consolidation. values voting prevents party consolidation
I really want this to be true, and I used to believe it, but our voting system is convoluted with a winner-takes-all mechanism. It isn’t a direct democracy where all votes are equal and it’s naive to ignore our elector-based system that encourages total domination of the big boys over everyone else.
Give me ranked choice voting and I’ll vote for my actual preferred candidate. Otherwise, I have to vote for who can actually have a chance to win.
nope.
tldr: If you vote for Trump, you hate America.
longer:
If you vote for Trump, you’re selfish, psychopathic, and are trying to damage the US more than it already is.
If you vote for anyone who isn’t Trump, you are helping the US take a step in the right direction.
This part is true
Until we are no longer bound by the Electoral College, this is dangerously false. “Not Trump” isn’t a candidate, and the single candidate with the most votes get the electoral votes. If Trump gets 49% and the “not Trump” votes get 51% but no single “not Trump” candidate gets above 49%, then Trump wins even though Trump got less votes than “not Trump”
The only way to meaningfully vote “not Trump” is to vote for the “not Trump” candidate who everyone is rallying around rather than throwing a stupid protest vote to a third party candidate.
In the 2016 republican primary, Trump got 44.9% of the vote. Three “not Trump” candidates got 50.2% combined, but it was divided between them.
If it is a protest vote, as goes your assumption without evidence? it’s dumb, but it’s their right.
most people vote on policy, so they’re voting for third party candidates that have a stronger stance on whatever policy there is.
in this particular election, Harris already achieved more effective policy change than third candidate platforms in terms of environmentalism, minority rights, and so on, so it makes logical sense to vote for her if you’re a political liberal, but if somebody wants to vote for Stein or anybody else because that candidate is more aligned with their views, that is just as valid as voting for Harris.
they are voting as they should, not as some are hoping they will be scared into voting.
voting sincerely is not “stupid”.
No. It really is. In 2016, 50,000 Pennsylvanians, including myself, voted for Jill Stein because we didn’t like Hilary. Trump won Pennsylvania by less than 50,000 votes and won the presidency.
It was fucking stupid and we wouldn’t even be discussing this piece of shit today, if we hadn’t revenge voted.
it sucks that Trump won, but your vote was valid and no third party voter was throwing their vote away.
they just lost.
Trump won for many other reasons besides third party voters.
there were a lot of bullshit tactics in 2016 that added up to way more votes lost that had a stronger impact on the election result than third-party voters sticking to their values.
shit, gerrymandering is still legal in the US and your voter registrations have practically no protection from interference. That’s insane.
If you voted according to your values, you voted well.
Exactly. And while I agree, I also live somewhere that uses a variety of ranked choice voting for some elections.
If someone truly wants to vote their values they should also have some understanding of how their voting system works.
If a vote for the candidate you believe in results in your least preferred candidate getting ahead, shouldn’t you consider a compromise vote to get a candidate closer to your values in power?
“If a vote for the candidate you believe in results in your least preferred candidate getting ahead, shouldn’t you consider a compromise vote to get a candidate closer to your values in power?”
sure, and they probably do.
your statement implies that third party voters are politically illiterate and aren’t considering their vote, which doesn’t hold any water.
do you think all Harris or Trump voters are carefully considering their options?
many are voting according to a familiar primary color.
from simple logic, third-party voters are likely more politically considerate than primary color voters.
a lot of the arguments against third-party voting are arguments against voting in general.
that is usually my problem, as it is here, with complaining about third-party voting.
it is completely predicated on the assumption that 3rd party voters are making the “wrong” decision in some fundamental way that primary color voters are not, although the hypothetical flaws that could apply to a third- party voter already apply to primary color voters.
If you don’t assume that the right to vote is “wrong” for people who don’t agree with you in the first place, then your complaints about third party voting fall apart.
third party voters like a different candidate.
and that’s good and they should vote for them if they want to.
Maybe. But with the system in place a vote for a third-party candidate is effectively an abstention. I think you’re right that they’re more politically considerate and wanting to make a difference. It’s the desire to make a difference and effectively abstaining that seems incongruous.
“Maybe.”
absolutely.
3rd party voters don’t consider…
neither do primary color voters.
3rd party voters are ignoring…
so are primary color voters.
“with the system in place a vote for a third-party candidate is effectively an abstention.”
no.
they are probably not going to win an election, but actively voting is the opposite of abstaining.
“It’s the desire to make a difference and effectively abstaining that seems incongruous.”
they are making a difference by voting for what they believe in, for the policies they consider most impactful on their lives(aka “voting” in most countries).
you see voting as an abstention even though it’s definitively the opposite of an abstention, implicitly based on consideration and values.
they probably see voting differently, maybe as an extension of their political will, or a form of activism, or a civic duty to be performed honestly.
I know I do.
Gods give me strength
duverger’s “law” shows that the problem with fptp is that people strategically vote, leading to party consolidation. values voting prevents party consolidation
Working to split the vote against Harris is effectively a vote for Trump and for fascism.
third party voters are not working to “split the vote”, they are voting for their preferred candidate.
also known as “voting” in healthy democracies.
and no, a vote for a different candidate is not a vote for Trump, that is fundamentally inaccurate fear-based alarmism.
it’s okay that you’re afraid, but that’s no reason to dismantle democracy.
I really want this to be true, and I used to believe it, but our voting system is convoluted with a winner-takes-all mechanism. It isn’t a direct democracy where all votes are equal and it’s naive to ignore our elector-based system that encourages total domination of the big boys over everyone else.
Give me ranked choice voting and I’ll vote for my actual preferred candidate. Otherwise, I have to vote for who can actually have a chance to win.
duverger has nothing to do with the electoral college. this is a Gish gallop